In the second part of this interview, Jamie tells us that we disable our users. It’s our fault, not theirs! And many more super interesting things.
Transcript
Nic: Welcome to the Accessibility Rules podcast. This is episode 32. I’m Nic Steenhout and I talk with people involved, in one way or another, with web accessibility. This episode has been sponsored by patrons like you. I really do appreciate your support. If you aren’t a patron yet and want to support the show, please visit patreon.com/steenhout. This week, I’m continuing my conversation with Jamie Knight, an autistic developer at the BBC.
One thing I’m curious about you said earlier that you were hanging out in forums and you said nobody knew I was autistic. Do you think you’d have had a different experience or maybe less access to getting work had people known you were autistic?
Jamie: I don’t know, because eventually I told everyone I was autistic and my life got a lot better. I was quite open about being autistic quite quickly. And I actually found that my life became a lot easier once I was honest about it because … This is a little bit of a stereotype. I’m white, I’m male, and I was a teenager. So an autistic teenager who builds websites, you kind of have the reputation.
Nic: Yes.
Jamie: And it was quite useful to fit that stereotype. Hello, I’m your autistic genius. Do you need a website? So it was kind of useful, but I was also being a bit weird because I was playing on the stereotype. It also doesn’t help that I do actually have an interest in prime numbers. So kind of me spotting prime numbers and mentioning them to people is a thing I do do. So I’m kind of stereotypical there as well. But hey, it takes all types. So I don’t think … I think there is so much work out there for developers that being able to do it whilst being myself was possible. All of my main clients knew I was autistic. It would come out in a discussion eventually, or they’d ask why I don’t do phone calls. In fact, most of my work, most of my kind of instrumental work when I was a teenager, when I’d really started my business, I didn’t have speech at all. So people couldn’t phone me if they wanted to and quite a lot of people appreciated that.
So I don’t think it held me back. I think it held me back when I started applying for jobs because the only reason I ended up freelancing was because no company would take a risk on me. Not for like for like a pretty weighty job. But a lot of companies would take a risk on me as a contractor. So people like Richard Quick, and again Allan Roe, and other people, they took a risk on me. They literally paid my food bill. They kept me alive through that period. And I learned the foundational skills. In a way, being homeless is a great learning experience. You have a lot of time to learn things. And sitting in a relatively cozy café building websites on a borrowed laptop was how I spent most of my time when I was homeless, and then going back to the hostel at night.
So I don’t think it held me back, but it did give me one massive benefit. When people think of autistic employment, they tend to think of bag packers or shelf stacking. One of the large … Tesco’s one of the large supermarkets in the UK, actually turned me down for a free placement, because I had the lion. So I kind of actually managed to skip the entire retail stage of a career. So a lot of young people in the UK start in retail, working in shops and do some education and move into an office. I’ve always worked in offices, I’ve always worked either for myself, or for large organizations. So being able to start that level up certainly helped to make my life a lot easier because I didn’t have to deal with doing customer service sort of thing.
Nic: That makes sense. Do you think it’s the responsibility of people with disabilities to pave the way for other people with disabilities?
Jamie: I don’t understand the question.
Nic: Okay.
Jamie: What do you mean by pave the way?
Nic: Alright. I’ve been told several times that as a wheelchair user, I was an ambassador for every other wheelchair user out there and I needed to behave and I needed to do things right and I needed to advocate not just for me, myself, but for other people that are using wheelchairs. Do you think that’s an accurate reflection of our responsibility as an individual with disabilities, or do you think it’s more of a well, I do it for myself, or I don’t do it at all, or how do you feel about that?
Jamie: Okay. So I actually … Do you know this actually comes up in autism land quite often. So I would take the opinion that it’s not my job to be an ambassador for all autistic people, and I couldn’t if I wanted to. When I do presentations, my second or third slide is a disclaimer that says three things. The first thing is that I’m gonna talk about anecdote, not science. Second thing is that I’m describing what works for me and why. I’m not telling people what they should do, I’m telling literally what works for me and why. And the third thing is that I can only talk for myself and I don’t talk for all autistic people. So from that angle, no, I can’t talk for all autistic people and it’s not the job of every autistic person to try and advocate for autistic people as a whole.
In fact, on of the things that I take some pride in, which is that my time is limited and I can’t help everybody and it’s not my job to help everybody. So one of the areas that I have very strong feelings is around person first, and I don’t speak first language. And we can get into the specifics of why I’m fine, perhaps. But as a general rule, I don’t just call any organization who uses PFL for autism. So people who say “person with autism”, “person has autism.” Because it’s a dangerous thing to do in my opinion. And I don’t have to be. So I will vote with my feet and I’ll spend my time with organizations who use identity supporting language, like “autistic person.” Things like that. Other autistic people feel that they somehow owe the world equal treating, no matter how the world treats them. That doesn’t doesn’t match straight.
Now in the context of my work, I have a bit of secret advantage in that when I learned to program, what I learned to do was explain things to a computer. And really, most of my work is an accessibility specialist and as an autism trainer and stuff like that, is to explain things to people. And to be honest, I’m actually treat it the same as programming. There’s a lot of overlap between writing a great presentation and a good piece of software. You know, structure, repeatability, themeing, good architecture. So in a way, I feel kind of very lucky that the thing that I obsessed on was learning to explain and that’s kind of what I do for my job. Now I might be explaining a process to a computer, or the social model of disability to a teacher, but it’s the same basic concept.
So because I have that skill, which sounds a bit arrogant … It is a bit arrogant, sorry. Because I do this thing, I think it’s useful for me to be able to do it. And one of the biggest pieces of feedback that I get from people is not that they necessarily agree with me, but I changed the way they think about something, and they have a different lens for looking at it. And I think that’s the valuable thing to do. So rather than having all autistic people advocate, I think having some autistic people be able to explain the lens they view the world through is very useful.
I think I mentioned before, I do a monthly podcast for the BBC with The Robyn, Jamie and Lion Show. And me an Robyn do not agree on many things. However, I have massive amount of respect for Robyn. Because whilst we don’t agree, our goal is shared, which is better lives for autistic people. In actual fact, when discussing where we don’t agree, we help explain to people new concepts and new ideas for them to reach their own conclusion. So whilst I don’t think it’s the duty of every autistic person to do that, I think those discussions are very valuable, and if somebody can participate in them, I think it benefits everybody.
Nic: Yeah. I would have to agree with that. I wanted to pick up on this thing about person first language, because I became involved in disability rights in the mid-1990s and that was one of the first thing that was drilled into me. You’re a person with a disability. You’re a wheelchair user. Someone has a hearing impairment. That kind of stuff. And for 20 plus years, this approach was drilled into me and I actually fully support that and accept that. And in interacting with autistic people more and more, I came to understand this different perspective that you lot have and I think it’s brilliant that there are those different perspectives and it’s important to do that. And at the same time, I have to apologize because due to 20 plus years of using person first language, every once in a while, I slip. So I was speaking to a group of developers three weeks ago about my service dog and I was describing the school that trained my dog also trains dogs for autistic kids. However, what came out was “for kids with autism.” And as I said that, I realized-
Jamie: Oops.
Nic: Yeah, oops. I shouldn’t have said that. I really … Disability language and perspectives is something that I’ve always found fascinating and I’m feeling quite enriched by this different perspective of I don’t have autism, I am autistic kind of approach. I think it’s enriching.
Jamie: I can kind of … To start off with, I’m not angry or upset when somebody uses person first language. But it actually depends. If they’re a researcher using person first language and they bloody well should know better, then that’s a different thing. I treat person first language in two ways. So I model it a little bit like the that I model racism. If somebody is racist about me, racist around me, and even mildly racist, I might stop and go “Hey guys, that’s not acceptable.” And there’s a difference between saying a single word that is considered racist and holding racist beliefs, and it’s the same thing with person first language. There’s the difference between holding belief that the role of the autistic person is look on as normal as possible, to, air quotes, recover and become near atypical. That’s the language of person first language. That’s where the language comes from. It comes from the medical model. That’s what I reject. I reject the medical model of autism. So in my view, autism is more like sexuality or gender.
So many years ago, homosexuality was a medical condition and then as a society recognized that it was just part of diversity. And autism going through the same transition. And from my perspective, somebody who’s using person first language is tying themselves to the medical model of autism, medical model of disability, as it’s applied to autism. And somebody who’s using identity first language is not. So I reject the medical model as applied to autism, and therefore reject the language that comes with it. If I’m talking to someone like yourself, who I think quite well understands the difference and occasionally slips up in language, well I just shrug and move on. It doesn’t really matter. Because it’s the underlying beliefs that matter. When it’s large organizations or people who purport themselves to be experts, that’s when it becomes a problem, because it’s the underlying ideology that I reject, not the specific use of words. I hope that makes some sense.
Nic: Yeah, it does make sense, except for the bit where I was taught the person first language in the context of social model disability, as opposed to the medical model, because I abhor the medical model. I really espouse the social model of disability and it’s interesting … Different perspective on that. But shall we bring it back to web accessibility for a moment.
Jamie: Yeah, I can go on about language and the nature of autism and such things at great length. And to be honest, it’s all anecdote, it’s all my opinion. There’s no science behind this.
Nic: It’s all good. It’s all good. And I think that our listeners are going to enjoy this conversation. However, as I said, let’s go back to web accessibility. What would you say is your greatest achievement in terms of web accessibility?
Jamie: I don’t know. There’s the things that I’m proudest of.
Nic: Okay.
Jamie: I suppose is where to start. I have the opportunity to continue the work Penny and Ian in developing the BBC mobile accessibility guidelines. And they’re used by hundreds of organizations around the world and they take a very different approach to WCAG and I think they’re stronger for it. I think the BBC guidelines … If I got run over tomorrow, I think my epitaph would be “This is Jamie. His life achievement was contributing to the BBC guidelines and helping around autism stuff.” That’s kind of where I see … That’s where I’m proudest. In terms of numbers, I think the most impactful thing I ever did was fix a typo that affected the skip link in the top of every single BBC page. And over the course of a week, billions and billions of pages were suddenly more usable. So there is kind of a disconnect between the most impactful thing I’ve ever done and the thing that I’m proudest of. I’m not particularly proud of adding and S to a typo, but it probably changed more lives than the BBC mobile guidelines do, at least directly. Does that answer the question, or have I kind of-
Nic: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s fine. I actually love this story about you fixed a typo and it changes the lives of thousands and thousands of people. This is great.
Jamie: What it did is … So I’m gonna get slightly on my high horse and say the value of accessibility to the BBC isn’t legal. There is a legal aspect, but there’s something much more important. At the BBC, we don’t want to exclude anybody as part of British culture and the BBC is part of British culture. So if let’s say we have a page that doesn’t work with any screen reader, we are excluding an entire community, and the community will become more and more excluded over time. The reason we make all of our games, or most of our games, work with switches is not for the couple hundred thousand of most switch users. It’s so that the child can play with their friends and play the same game and be part of the cohesive society. So when it comes to accessibility at the BBC, those small things, making entire group, or an entire … I don’t know. Group is probably the best word.
But making an entire group’s experience of the BBC more welcoming, is probably the most powerful thing we do. The BBC is for everybody. It’s funded by everybody and we consider everybody part of our audience. So we have to follow through and actually make everything that we build inclusive, so that we don’t disable the audience. So I think … I’ll get back off of my BBC high horse. But it’s the fundamental nature of the BBC that draws me to the BBC. We’re here genuinely for good. That’s what we’re here for and this sense of working to the best interest of the user and the community is what we’re all about, day in day out, and that’s a very remarkable place to be.
Nic: Yeah. I keep going back to this principle you guys have that you don’t want to disable your audience and I so wish more companies, corporations, and organization would take that approach. Because I think it would incentivize people to actually make things more user-friendly, more accessible, more usable in general.
Jamie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). A last part of why we can follow that approach is because we don’t do audits. What we do is we embed champions within … I don’t know if I mentioned the Champions Network before. So very quickly, most BBC products and teams, they have an embedded champion. We network the champions together. We support them, we teach the champions. The champions support each other. So there’s 150 people strong accessibility community.
And to be honest, about 50 to 60% of questions don’t come anywhere near our team. Another champion will answer them before we even know about it. So a large part of our work is to make accessibility a thing that is done and not reach out to other people, not to be the holders of some knowledge and then charge people to access it. Now again, that model works very well with the BBC, but it probably doesn’t scale to the size of an industry. And how we deal with that fundamental conflict, I don’t know. I think that’s above my pay grade. I know what works for the BBC, and I can certainly talk about the pros and cons, but how that scales to organizations who are smaller, or who aren’t interested in developing skills, I’m not entirely sure. I don’t know what the solution to that problem is.
Nic: I’ve been thinking about this thing of embedding champions in teams and getting away from audits because I don’t like audits. I do them, of course and in a way for me it allows me to keep my skills up to do audits. But ultimately, I don’t think that’s the way to go about it. But the fact is there’s a lot of these small companies, or even big companies, that are finding themselves in a situation where they don’t have accessibility experts on hand internally. They don’t have champions internally, and they have a big site and they have to know be able to take the pulse of what’s going on with the site and how do we make it better. So I think assessments are a necessary evil. At the same time, I’d like to look at maybe instead of just taking the pulse and doing an audit, maybe the solution is to go in and instead of auditing and finding what’s wrong, go in, find it, fix it.
Jamie: Yeah, work with people and I think this is another power, a super power for the BBC, so to speak. Which is, we have a lot of developers. They often leave. And when they leave, they take what they learned with us with them. So we’re kind of … Part of the aim of the BBC is almost train an industry. So when a champion leaves the BBC, they leave with the skills they learned from us. We have champions who have left and started champions networks where they landed and things like that. And I think there is a … I don’t know, a role in the future for … Just as a anecdote. I was at an event last night and something that really frustrated me was a man walking around in a t-shirt with accessibility ninja written on the back. And the reason that frustrated me is because it communicates very deep things that are actually quite exclusionary. Because it gives the idea that accessibility is difficult or hard, rather than accessibility mostly being quite straightforward.
Now, the idea that you need to be an accessibility … The biggest problem we have with champions, is they come to us and go, I don’t know anything about accessibility, so why can I be a champion? And we’re like “No, you’re perfect. You’re perfect as you are. Come learn with us and we’ll do good things together, but you don’t have to be an expert. You don’t have to consider yourself, identify as an accessibility expert to be good at accessibility.” So a little bit like how performance and security are trying to push themselves to be part of just standard development practices, we’re aiming towards the same thing with accessibility. And I think the more we do it over time and the less we treat ourselves as an industry like we’re exclusive black hat wizard ninjas, the better. I find the phrase accessibility ninja just … I don’t know. It rubs me all the wrong ways. It’s what we’re trying to get away from as quickly as possible.
Nic: I couldn’t agree more. I really could not agree more. This is actually good. And I’m gonna steal your accessibility ninja experience and make it a slide at my next presentation.
Jamie: It’s so much of this is about making things less scary, you know. Audits are scary. Audits, the expert versus us. You get into an us them situation. With our champions, we run something called Task Zero, which is the idea the first thing you do when you become a champion is we ask you to pick some of our guidelines and apply them to something you work on or something you like. And we get a lot of champions who are worried they’ll do it wrong, and then we say to them “No, there is no way to do this wrong. We just wanna start a conversation.” And we have a lot of champions who start of worried that they don’t know anything, but then slowly realize they actually know quite a lot. And actually, more than anything, being a champion gives them the social permission to ask. So if you’re an accessibility champion, you might ask at stand up “How’re we gonna do this for keyboards?” And simply asking at stand up during the design stage makes everything so much easier by the end, that there’s no need for the audit because it’s built in.
Now, we won’t get everything. Another area of the champions is that we are humans, the champions are humans. We will sometimes fail. Failure is not a bad thing. Failure is a chance to learn. So when something goes out the door with a big issue, we don’t go around banging the drum to find who’s responsible. We get involved and we help them fix it and see what lessons we can put out of it to share with other teams. And in a way, having people feel comfortable talking about the times it goes wrong, is as important or more important than talking about the times it went well. So trying to break that social convention of they are the experts, we are not the experts is really important long term for the BBC. And again, how that expands to the wider industry, I don’t know, that’s beyond my pay grade.
Nic: I think it has a lot of correlations with this thing that I’ve been working on, is breaking this barrier of us versus them between people with disabilities and people without, you know? And I think breaking this barrier between accessibility ninjas and the rest of coders I think is just as important. And as you mentioned, we have to work on it from the very early stages of design, all the way to QA testing even.
Jamie: Yeah. Well, this is how we integrate. So the approach that we take is we have a set of guidelines. They are the requirements and they’re platform agnostic as well. They don’t care if you’re a native app or a website. The guidelines are the requirements. We then have technology specific guides. So we have a guide to HTML. Well, we currently have in development a guide to HTML, which is a guide of how to write HTML that will meet the guidelines. We then have an automated testing tool called BBC A11Y, or BBC Ally, which checks websites against the stuff that’s easily automatable from our HTML guide. So we’re giving QA people tools, we’re giving developers training and tools, we’re writing down what we think and we’re explaining it to people. And almost all of what we do is not about doing … Rebecca, who’s one of the principals on our team. Actually, she’s the principal on our team. There’s only one of her. She once had this great analogy, in that it’s not a case of teaching to fish or fishing. Sometimes it’s sitting next to someone and fishing alongside them. Sometimes it’s having a discussion about fishing and helping someone pick a rod or pick a string. String? I mean, a line.
And actually I think that’s a really good approach. And we do a lot of that. We do a lot of teaching to fish. We do a lot of fishing alongside people. What we don’t do is we don’t fish for people. So if somebody asks us for a review, we’ll probably normally say “Hi, yeah. Do you want a champion?” And we’ll work with the champion to review it. But they’re in the driving seat. And that can sometimes be a bit scary. So a large part of our job ends up being helping people to do the social side of it and … We try our best not to be scary. I think that’s the … We’re like the opposite of Infosec. Information security really like being scary. We really don’t want to be scary. So that’s kind of approach.
Nic: Yeah, I like that idea of fishing alongside. What do you think the number one reason most people fail at accessibility is?
Jamie: I don’t think people fail at accessibility. I think what happens is that requirements are not surfaced early enough. So the better question is why are some members of the audience requirements not surfaced? That’s because of a lack of diversity in the workforce. So if you’ve got a workforce that only consists of able bodied people who don’t use assisted technology, then your workforce itself isn’t representative of your audience. And this is where diversity comes in in employment. When you have … When the screen reader stops being a fictional person and starts being Ben sat two tables over, it changes everything. It changes the culture, it changes the appreciation for other people and their needs. And generally speaking, when you have a diverse team, you have more perspectives. And from more perspective come better ideas. So I don’t think there’s a problem that people fail at accessibility. I think what happens is that people miss elements of their audience who have different needs and I think the reason that tends to happen is because of a lack of diversity.
Nic: I am applauding in my head so hard, so loud right now. This is a brilliant answer. Thank you.
Jamie: I believe this because I’ve seen it from the autism perspective. Making the BBC hiring process better for autistic people was really complicated until we asked an autistic lady called Lena to do it. It was like not the experts who really didn’t help much. And then Lean, who’s auti, was like “Yeah, do this this and this. Duh.” Okay. And it’s made a huge difference. So diversity … So many social issues come down to diversity and representation. Autism, so much of it … I was chatting to someone the other day who’s on the regional autism panel, and she’s a doctor. And she was introduced as the person with autism who’s with us today. And they introduced her to a room of professionals who are all near atypical. And she made some point and they were like “Well, you know, that’s not how it works, and psychology.” And towards the middle of the meeting she was like “So, where did you train? I’m just interested.” “Oh, I’m from the Royal College of Psychologists.” “Great, I lecture there on Tuesdays.” And the entire room changed their attitude to her. And suddenly, she stopped being the participant with autism and became the autistic expert.
And I think that’s where a lot of things can … Now, there’s dangers to it, of course. Because again, one autistic person is one autistic person. One blind user is one blind user. But there is enough that’s transferrable that it’s a start. And we don’t have to be perfect. We just have to be constantly progressing. And these diverse teams, they do that well.
Nic: What would you think your greatest frustration is in terms of web accessibility?
Jamie: React.
Nic: Yes, okay. Yeah.
Jamie: The idea … We have a lot of new engineers, who in order to build the web, have to make the web look like other platforms, because they haven’t had the diverse experiences themselves to know how to make the web the web. And if we follow through … Basically, it’s not just React. Any toolkit that promises to fix everything. Because what happens is developers rely on it because developers aren’t confident on the platform. So rather than having a developer who has a great understanding of HTML, we get a developer who has a great understanding of JavaScript and React and kind of assumes that anything React produces is good. And I think that’s a leading cause of issues that we experience.
The other side of it is it’s very cyclical. Somebody was telling me recently that React is dying in favor of View. And I sat there going “I can’t remember prototype and J Query.” I get that React is a different programming paradigm. It’s reactive programming rather than DOM manipulation. But I think eventually these things are going to become part of the browser. That’s generally what happens. A good library becomes part of the browser. Most of what J Query does, DOM manipulation, browsers now do themselves. And I suspect in the future, we’re gonna have something React-like in the browser, which will be great because the browsers tend to integrate tuff with great accessibility. So I think we’re in an in between stage where the tool can potentially be the next paradigm of development, is out there, and engineers certainly want to use it, but there’s not quite a good understanding of the corners it can get you into and the impact it has on users.
And of course, we get back to diversity. If there was a blind user a couple things up from you going “I can’t use this. This is meaningless. This is just div soup. I have no idea what’s going on.” Well, you’ve learned quite quickly the good sides and the bad sides and what you have to do to make it effective. So I think my biggest single frustration would be diversity. My single biggest technology frustration would be React and other large frameworks that overpromise and then kind of miss the point.
Nic: Right. What’s the challenges for the accessibility community going forward? What’s our greatest barrier to overcome ourselves?
Jamie: The ninjas.
Nic: The ninjas. Yeah.
Jamie: It’s very hard to get rid of ninjas, because they could be anywhere.
Nic: Enough said, yeah, yeah.
Jamie: I think the attitude that accessibility is special. That’s actually part of … It’s the same as one of the things I push back on in autism world. I have needs. They’re not special needs. They’re just needs. By making them special needs, you make them spell special and they’re not. I have needs like things for a calm and quiet environment. And do you know what? Most people do. It’s just I’m more sensitive to it. I’m not oversensitive to it. I’m just more sensitive to it. And I think the same is true for a lot of other areas. So I think that’s my answer to that one.
Nic: That makes perfect sense. Now your saying about special needs reminds me of a protest I participated in once in the States when I was working with Adapt for a little bit. We were at this protest. There were about 300 people in wheelchairs there. And I zoomed into an army surplus store and purchased a dozen badges, special forces badges and distributed them to my friends. And we all thought it was a great joke, except the people that didn’t understand this concept of we’re not special needs. We don’t need special education, we’re not special. Because there were people that actually thought we were a whole bunch that were ex-military from the special forces. It was just hilarious.
Jamie: You get into the question of identity, which comes back to person first language and lots of other things. One of the great insights I had from chatting to a friend in America recently was that most veterans do not consider themselves disabled. They consider themselves veterans. So if you do a survey for people with disabilities, you will almost certainly miss one of the largest groups with impairments because they don’t identify that way. Similar sort of thing, I had a bit of a funny joke with somebody on Twitter recently that one of the airlines in the UK offered a guide to traveling with autism. It was in the same guidebook as like Traveling with Large Luggage. All of these autistic people started riffing on it, going “Well, where do I put my autism? Does it have to fit in the overhead locker?” And I was like “Well, when I do my next flying lesson, can I leave my autism with someone on the ground? How long is it before I have to … Pick up like four hours?” And it was just this really great coming together of humor around the dark things we do with language. And it reminds me of that, really. I’m a special forces badge.
And the BBC’s new diversity project, run Lena, it’s not called Diversity in the Workplace. It’s called CAPE. Which is Creating A Positive Environment. And it’s entirely themed around superheros and the idea that there are superheros all around us, but our environment blocks them from doing things. So if we change the environment, if we improve the meeting rooms, if we improve the signage, we unlock superheros among our midst. And I think that’s a really great analogy and it reminds me of the difference between Ironman and Superman. I don’t know if you’ve ever heard this analogy before, but Ironman is Tony Stark and he puts something on to become super. He puts on this suit which is separate to him. Superman is always super, and he has to put something on to disguise who he is. And I think a lot of people thing autism is Ironman, that there is a person with a suit of autism, when the autism is Superman. We are Superman and we have to put on a mask to appear normal. And that’s kind of another thing about that whole language with versus autistic. Anyway, I can get into that discussion with lots of analogies for a very long time. But I think we’d probably run out of time and bore the listeners to death.
Nic: Yeah, I certainly could talk with you about that for a long time. But we’re nearly out of time. Let me ask you one last question. What’s the one thing people should remember about web accessibility?
Jamie: That’s a really good question. We disable our users. It’s our fault. Not theirs.
Nic: Thank you.
Jamie: I think that’s the biggest thing.
Nic: That’s brilliant. That’s brilliant. Jamie, I have enjoyed talking to you so much. I hope you enjoyed the experience as well. And I’m sure that for those of you guys who are listening to this conversation, you had several enlightening moments and thank you for listening.
Jamie: Yeah, thanks for listening. As always, thanks for inviting me and thanks to the listeners for listening. It’s always amazing to be able to talk to people and to spread knowledge around. So I appreciate the opportunity.
Nic: But before I go, I want to thank my patrons once again. And remember that if you need a hand ensuring your site’s accessibility, I’m available. Contact me on my website at incl.ca.